Oh oh my favorite kind of discussion. Love the progress you are making. Question, do you have a meta stat that allows you to place extra effort into "this" task that must be completed. Determination, willpower, effort, fortune, luck (already used) which is why I ask. So if I started each session with 1 point of this meta stat then I would have a go to, an all in. So I would set Luck aside for the moment and consider if this could be, should be your meta stat. I will have more comments as I consider.
Hmm. I like this, though I don't know if we are looking at Luck in the same way.
I am playing with the range and complexity of Luck, as in it being a 100% random event, BUT you can call on it. OR....can 'Luck' actually become a 'skill'???
...I'm undecided. Looking for pros and cons.
I've never seen or considered a 'meta' stat....but I like the "Willpower" word -- it sounds like something that covers the other words.
I would pose the question..luck as a skill, along side other skills. Say hand to hand, can these be trained? I know how to train hand to hand, how would one train luck?
How does one train Luck? By recognizing that Luck isn’t just random chance—it’s intuition, alignment, and connection with the energies around us. True Luck is the ability to sense and act on opportunities before they fully reveal themselves. It’s being attuned to your surroundings, your inner voice, and the unseen forces that shape reality.
You train Luck by training intuition—by learning to listen to that quiet nudge before a decision, by deepening your awareness of people, nature, and the elements. You cultivate it through presence, through trust, through engaging with the world beyond logic alone.
In essence, Luck isn’t chaos—it’s a skill, an attunement, a relationship with the currents of possibility. The more you understand it, the more you can call upon it.
That's what I was going to say, and use the example of listening to that inner voice, or that interfere that some of us get. Intuition is definitely the best word I can think of.
Yes, true luck IS the ability to sense and act on opportunities before they fully revealed themselves. It's being aware of your surroundings. It's about understanding the equal and opposite reactions to things, and then knowing how to time them.
It's funny, I am getting to be an old man, and I still shock young men when they think to have a physical confrontation with me, and they move towards me.
When they get hit by me, by their recollection, and by outside observance, you would think that I was lightning fast.
The TRUTH is, I know the distancing between us, I could see by the pivot of his hips and shoulders that he was going to engage with me, so I just held out my fist.
Magic.
They did 90% of the work, by closing the gap.
I just happen to know that they were going to close the gap.
Is that luck?
Maybe.
...perhaps 'Luck" will have many definitions, but the results can be similar or the same, depending on it being a skill or magical use?
These terms bring back memories. Making up the characters was my favorite part when I was the little sister and my brother would let me participate a little. I would go away and draw my character in the little box at the top of the sheet and I was happy.
I never got into it, but I see the appeal, especially with what they can do with video these days. I loved making characters, but I could never get into the rest.
For progression, I would love to have infinite progression, but I struggle to see how you would balance the game, or assign “levels”. Basically if we have characters that we want to port over to a new campaign, it seems that it would be difficult to say how many points to assign to any new characters as progression is happening naturally.
With the attribute points, I think the nat 1 system is good, other than that, it may be best to leave it up to the game master/dm to decide when to give them. It could be when they accomplish a hard task, or a dm could let you train, and decide how to do it. It almost feels like inspiration die in dnd, but it would be a permanent buff.
Luck. Luck should not be a skill in my opinion. You could make it work similarly by honing the amount of luck points you receive, but you should definitely have to expend something in order to utilize luck.
These are the three big things I had feedback on, although I may comment again when I reread the article, (probably after work)
Thanks for this feedback, Benjamin...and I agree quite a bit myself. I'd love to have infinite progression, and I DO believe you can have that, but then we get into customizing the game to grow with the PCs.
Not impossible, but not easy.
The other thing is, the harder things get the harder to pushback.
....let me explain what my son Evan does.
Yes, he has MANY players, who, over the space of time, get more powerful, and so the level of difficulty has to be increased.
But here's the thing...they can die.
That's something that people don't really think about. It's a rule that he holds to, and one that I actually want to hold to myself.
When a PC dies in one of my sons games, and they have performed all of their saving rolls, and the death is confirmed, the character sheet gets torn up.
That's where there is a lot of emotion. Panic. And that's understandable, because we have spent a lot of time developing this character.
But that's also part of life.
Death.
Now on the subject of lock, I do think that it should be maybe not a skill, but it still needs to be in ability. Here's why:
...magic.
There's a way to manipulate all sorts of things when you use some form of magic. It's one of the fun ways that you can tweak, or, manipulate your circumstances to your advantage.
You’re right, I didn’t think about magic influencing luck.
I have a question about how death works in Evan’s campaign. If you die do you start over at level 1? Or do you start at the same level as everyone else? And if you do start back at level 1 how does he handle balance within the party?
I know the way that I’ve always seen it done is that you introduce a new character to the story that is not new to the world. Basically if everyone is level 5, you create a new level 5 character, and just join up.
I’m asking because I am dming a campaign with a couple of friends, and I would love it to be a complete reset, back to level 1, but I don’t want to unbalance the campaign, or kill somebody again because they were to low level to deal with the creatures. But it also pertains here with the natural leveling process
You know, that's a really good question. In fact, it's a really good situation, and could be really fun to tweak it.
Let me tell you what I mean...
What if you did a combination of the two?
What if what you did when someone died, instead of giving them the opportunity to start at level five with the rest of the PCs, you start him at one. But what you do here, as you let him advance twice as fast, to catch up.
That lets the person who made it bad decision, or maybe had a bad role and keep in mind that it should be fairly difficult to actually kill off your character, to feel the pain and still be involved.
Really depending on how you level up, being with the party would level you faster, I do my xp party wide, so if someone were to die, they would still get the same amount of xp as the others as a level 1 character. They would catch up quite quickly for the most part, but would be behind about 1 level without any added xp.
My real issue is having high level monsters fighting the party, and them just feeling like a deadweight because they can’t do much. I have some ideas for it, but just wanted to know what it was like in Evan’s situation
I’ve been thinking about how to enhance character development in The Hero Within without making it too complex for beginners. Your core attributes are solid, but what if we swapped Luck for Intuition or added intuition and made luck a serendipity-right place right time-right energetic shift that was created without a conscious awareness.
Also, what if you introduced a simple, optional personality system that could deepen immersion without adding unnecessary mechanics?
Balancing depth with accessibility:
1. Personality is Optional → Players who just want to roll with attributes can do so. But those who love roleplay can choose a personality type to enhance their experience.
2. Keep It Broad & Familiar → Instead of using MBTI’s 16 types (too much for a game setting), you could create 4-6 easy-to-grasp archetypes, each giving a small in-game bonus. For example:
• Thinker (Logic-driven, calculated) → Small bonus to Reason
• Connector (People-focused, intuitive) → Bonus to Influence
• Guardian (Protector, tough) → Bonus to Constitution
• Maverick (Risk-taker, unpredictable) → Bonus to Coordination
3. Tied to Playstyle, Not Extra Stats → Instead of rolling for personality, players simply pick one based on how they want to play their character (Example: Do you trust your instincts over logic? Pick Connector).
4. No Extra Math or Complexity → The personality choice should only offer a minor bonus (like a +1 to a related attribute or a special reroll in certain situations). No new mechanics, no extra dice rolls—just flavor and playstyle.
5. Quick Reference Cheat Sheet → A simple, one-page guide so players can scan through and pick what fits their character best.
This can:
• Enhances character depth without forcing extra mechanics.
• Keeps gameplay fast and intuitive for beginners.
• Gives roleplayers more ways to engage without overloading non-roleplayers.
• Adds a more tangible, trainable skill (Intuition).
This could add a layer of immersion while keeping the game approachable. You could even playtest it to see if players find it engaging or cumbersome. Let me know what you think!
First off, I want to say Kristie, is that I am not surprised at all.
I fully expect you to amaze me every time we engage in the comments. It's something that I have just learned to accept, appreciate, and rely on (BIG smile).
You make fantastic points, and I have to tell you right up front, that you're jumping the gun.
That's a good thing, by the way.
Some of your comments have to be combined with what we're talking about right now. We just haven't decided or I should say we haven't talked about the classes yet.
Which I have written out
So let me address a couple of these things:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by a 'personality system', because when you play these games and you do it correctly, at least in my experience, your personality is always involved and it's what makes the game fun!
Another point that I need to make is that we have to create a simpler system to begin with, so you're spot on here. The number one goal is to win over new people that have never played in RPG before. This is critical, I believe both to the success of this game, and for the success of the experience in PLAYING the game.
All these things can (and will) be expanded upon and made more complex over time, so that's what I'm gonna focus on. Simplicity, where I can keep it simple.
[...AND before you say it, YES, I mean simplicity according to the PLAYERS definition, NOT "mine".... *wink*]
I'll have to think more about the no extra math or complexity, because I'm trying to make this as simple as possible, but we will need ways to adjust the dice rolls. But I have to admit I really do like the idea of keeping the mechanic simple and no extra dice rolls just flavor and play style. Really good suggestion!
Now for the quick reference sheet, or the cheat sheet? I love that idea. Hands-down, I think they should be incorporated. So regardless, what we end up with let's make sure that we have a quick reference cheat sheet!
Jaime, I totally get what you mean about personality naturally coming through in gameplay, and I 100% agree—that’s the magic of role-playing! But I was thinking specifically about younger players or those new to RPGs who might not have the same level of self-awareness as adults or seasoned players.
These personality traits would be within each class, personality archetypes (like ‘The Loyal Protector,’ ‘The Curious Wanderer,’ or ‘The Reluctant Leader’)? Not as rigid assignments, but more like inspiration points for those who need a little nudge in stepping into their character.
For younger players, this could help them see themselves in their hero—bringing a layer of self-discovery into the game that ties beautifully into “The Hero Within” theme—Recognizing the hero within themselves.
It wouldn’t add complexity—just a bit of guidance to help new players (especially kids) connect more deeply with their role. What do you think?
And so glad you’ll incorporate a cheat sheet. Honestly, I’m just thinking about how my son would best learn and play this game. He’s never played a TTRPG before and I was explaining it to him which brought up so many questions for him. I base my thinking on his beginner’s mind.
"... I was thinking specifically about younger players or those new to RPGs who might not have the same level of self-awareness as adults or seasoned players.?
Ahhhhhh, now THAT makes sense! So the younger kids know HOW they need to act, or play it out...on purpose! GOTCHA.
Really good idea! =-)
I like that a lot, and maybe that could also be a simplistic set of rules with a little chart?
Oh, the fact that you have Lucas there as a, uhhhhhh, shall we say "test subject" is quite the advantage. Thank you so much for putting your boy in the hot seat! Lol.
Yes, but this is where I tell people "I get that you want everyone to be everything, but they aren't. Ih, you want to be a dwarf that loves cats, that's on you. Want to enjoy jazzercize? Go for it...you just suck at it compared to the elves."
Creativity is where this would be me saying if you want this badly, sell me on how? Magic? Potions? Get special dance lessons from the hot elf chick's of the traveling hip wiggles? Okay.
...just don't say dwarves can do everything,or those no point in being one.
Which if that's the case, be a jazzercize elf and just find a ring of dwarf illusion.
Oh oh my favorite kind of discussion. Love the progress you are making. Question, do you have a meta stat that allows you to place extra effort into "this" task that must be completed. Determination, willpower, effort, fortune, luck (already used) which is why I ask. So if I started each session with 1 point of this meta stat then I would have a go to, an all in. So I would set Luck aside for the moment and consider if this could be, should be your meta stat. I will have more comments as I consider.
Hmm. I like this, though I don't know if we are looking at Luck in the same way.
I am playing with the range and complexity of Luck, as in it being a 100% random event, BUT you can call on it. OR....can 'Luck' actually become a 'skill'???
...I'm undecided. Looking for pros and cons.
I've never seen or considered a 'meta' stat....but I like the "Willpower" word -- it sounds like something that covers the other words.
Glad you're here, Graylion!
I would pose the question..luck as a skill, along side other skills. Say hand to hand, can these be trained? I know how to train hand to hand, how would one train luck?
How does one train Luck? By recognizing that Luck isn’t just random chance—it’s intuition, alignment, and connection with the energies around us. True Luck is the ability to sense and act on opportunities before they fully reveal themselves. It’s being attuned to your surroundings, your inner voice, and the unseen forces that shape reality.
You train Luck by training intuition—by learning to listen to that quiet nudge before a decision, by deepening your awareness of people, nature, and the elements. You cultivate it through presence, through trust, through engaging with the world beyond logic alone.
In essence, Luck isn’t chaos—it’s a skill, an attunement, a relationship with the currents of possibility. The more you understand it, the more you can call upon it.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha... You beat me to it, Kristie.
That's what I was going to say, and use the example of listening to that inner voice, or that interfere that some of us get. Intuition is definitely the best word I can think of.
Yes, true luck IS the ability to sense and act on opportunities before they fully revealed themselves. It's being aware of your surroundings. It's about understanding the equal and opposite reactions to things, and then knowing how to time them.
It's funny, I am getting to be an old man, and I still shock young men when they think to have a physical confrontation with me, and they move towards me.
When they get hit by me, by their recollection, and by outside observance, you would think that I was lightning fast.
The TRUTH is, I know the distancing between us, I could see by the pivot of his hips and shoulders that he was going to engage with me, so I just held out my fist.
Magic.
They did 90% of the work, by closing the gap.
I just happen to know that they were going to close the gap.
Is that luck?
Maybe.
...perhaps 'Luck" will have many definitions, but the results can be similar or the same, depending on it being a skill or magical use?
So yes I vote for Luck or something similair to be an expendable resource/meta currency to tip the odds a limited amount of times.
These terms bring back memories. Making up the characters was my favorite part when I was the little sister and my brother would let me participate a little. I would go away and draw my character in the little box at the top of the sheet and I was happy.
YOU PLAY!???
....I am so blown away at how many people played RPGs....and we don't hear about it until later in life!!
HAHAHAHAH.....I love it =)
I never got into it, but I see the appeal, especially with what they can do with video these days. I loved making characters, but I could never get into the rest.
Hmmmm, maybe you didn't play with the RIGHT people, eh?
....you may get an invite to watch or listen to a game session at some point (grin).
For progression, I would love to have infinite progression, but I struggle to see how you would balance the game, or assign “levels”. Basically if we have characters that we want to port over to a new campaign, it seems that it would be difficult to say how many points to assign to any new characters as progression is happening naturally.
With the attribute points, I think the nat 1 system is good, other than that, it may be best to leave it up to the game master/dm to decide when to give them. It could be when they accomplish a hard task, or a dm could let you train, and decide how to do it. It almost feels like inspiration die in dnd, but it would be a permanent buff.
Luck. Luck should not be a skill in my opinion. You could make it work similarly by honing the amount of luck points you receive, but you should definitely have to expend something in order to utilize luck.
These are the three big things I had feedback on, although I may comment again when I reread the article, (probably after work)
Thanks for this feedback, Benjamin...and I agree quite a bit myself. I'd love to have infinite progression, and I DO believe you can have that, but then we get into customizing the game to grow with the PCs.
Not impossible, but not easy.
The other thing is, the harder things get the harder to pushback.
....let me explain what my son Evan does.
Yes, he has MANY players, who, over the space of time, get more powerful, and so the level of difficulty has to be increased.
But here's the thing...they can die.
That's something that people don't really think about. It's a rule that he holds to, and one that I actually want to hold to myself.
When a PC dies in one of my sons games, and they have performed all of their saving rolls, and the death is confirmed, the character sheet gets torn up.
That's where there is a lot of emotion. Panic. And that's understandable, because we have spent a lot of time developing this character.
But that's also part of life.
Death.
Now on the subject of lock, I do think that it should be maybe not a skill, but it still needs to be in ability. Here's why:
...magic.
There's a way to manipulate all sorts of things when you use some form of magic. It's one of the fun ways that you can tweak, or, manipulate your circumstances to your advantage.
That's what I want to provide for players.
Does that make sense?
You’re right, I didn’t think about magic influencing luck.
I have a question about how death works in Evan’s campaign. If you die do you start over at level 1? Or do you start at the same level as everyone else? And if you do start back at level 1 how does he handle balance within the party?
Huh. I never asked that...but I would think if you're a new person, you're a new person.
I know that on Occassion, Evan has turned over a NPC for a person to tweak.
I don't know, @Graylion, do you deal with things like this?
I know the way that I’ve always seen it done is that you introduce a new character to the story that is not new to the world. Basically if everyone is level 5, you create a new level 5 character, and just join up.
I’m asking because I am dming a campaign with a couple of friends, and I would love it to be a complete reset, back to level 1, but I don’t want to unbalance the campaign, or kill somebody again because they were to low level to deal with the creatures. But it also pertains here with the natural leveling process
You know, that's a really good question. In fact, it's a really good situation, and could be really fun to tweak it.
Let me tell you what I mean...
What if you did a combination of the two?
What if what you did when someone died, instead of giving them the opportunity to start at level five with the rest of the PCs, you start him at one. But what you do here, as you let him advance twice as fast, to catch up.
That lets the person who made it bad decision, or maybe had a bad role and keep in mind that it should be fairly difficult to actually kill off your character, to feel the pain and still be involved.
Just a thought.
Really depending on how you level up, being with the party would level you faster, I do my xp party wide, so if someone were to die, they would still get the same amount of xp as the others as a level 1 character. They would catch up quite quickly for the most part, but would be behind about 1 level without any added xp.
My real issue is having high level monsters fighting the party, and them just feeling like a deadweight because they can’t do much. I have some ideas for it, but just wanted to know what it was like in Evan’s situation
I’ve been thinking about how to enhance character development in The Hero Within without making it too complex for beginners. Your core attributes are solid, but what if we swapped Luck for Intuition or added intuition and made luck a serendipity-right place right time-right energetic shift that was created without a conscious awareness.
Also, what if you introduced a simple, optional personality system that could deepen immersion without adding unnecessary mechanics?
Balancing depth with accessibility:
1. Personality is Optional → Players who just want to roll with attributes can do so. But those who love roleplay can choose a personality type to enhance their experience.
2. Keep It Broad & Familiar → Instead of using MBTI’s 16 types (too much for a game setting), you could create 4-6 easy-to-grasp archetypes, each giving a small in-game bonus. For example:
• Thinker (Logic-driven, calculated) → Small bonus to Reason
• Connector (People-focused, intuitive) → Bonus to Influence
• Guardian (Protector, tough) → Bonus to Constitution
• Maverick (Risk-taker, unpredictable) → Bonus to Coordination
3. Tied to Playstyle, Not Extra Stats → Instead of rolling for personality, players simply pick one based on how they want to play their character (Example: Do you trust your instincts over logic? Pick Connector).
4. No Extra Math or Complexity → The personality choice should only offer a minor bonus (like a +1 to a related attribute or a special reroll in certain situations). No new mechanics, no extra dice rolls—just flavor and playstyle.
5. Quick Reference Cheat Sheet → A simple, one-page guide so players can scan through and pick what fits their character best.
This can:
• Enhances character depth without forcing extra mechanics.
• Keeps gameplay fast and intuitive for beginners.
• Gives roleplayers more ways to engage without overloading non-roleplayers.
• Adds a more tangible, trainable skill (Intuition).
This could add a layer of immersion while keeping the game approachable. You could even playtest it to see if players find it engaging or cumbersome. Let me know what you think!
First off, I want to say Kristie, is that I am not surprised at all.
I fully expect you to amaze me every time we engage in the comments. It's something that I have just learned to accept, appreciate, and rely on (BIG smile).
You make fantastic points, and I have to tell you right up front, that you're jumping the gun.
That's a good thing, by the way.
Some of your comments have to be combined with what we're talking about right now. We just haven't decided or I should say we haven't talked about the classes yet.
Which I have written out
So let me address a couple of these things:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by a 'personality system', because when you play these games and you do it correctly, at least in my experience, your personality is always involved and it's what makes the game fun!
Another point that I need to make is that we have to create a simpler system to begin with, so you're spot on here. The number one goal is to win over new people that have never played in RPG before. This is critical, I believe both to the success of this game, and for the success of the experience in PLAYING the game.
All these things can (and will) be expanded upon and made more complex over time, so that's what I'm gonna focus on. Simplicity, where I can keep it simple.
[...AND before you say it, YES, I mean simplicity according to the PLAYERS definition, NOT "mine".... *wink*]
I'll have to think more about the no extra math or complexity, because I'm trying to make this as simple as possible, but we will need ways to adjust the dice rolls. But I have to admit I really do like the idea of keeping the mechanic simple and no extra dice rolls just flavor and play style. Really good suggestion!
Now for the quick reference sheet, or the cheat sheet? I love that idea. Hands-down, I think they should be incorporated. So regardless, what we end up with let's make sure that we have a quick reference cheat sheet!
I really appreciate your feedback, Kristie.
Jaime, I totally get what you mean about personality naturally coming through in gameplay, and I 100% agree—that’s the magic of role-playing! But I was thinking specifically about younger players or those new to RPGs who might not have the same level of self-awareness as adults or seasoned players.
These personality traits would be within each class, personality archetypes (like ‘The Loyal Protector,’ ‘The Curious Wanderer,’ or ‘The Reluctant Leader’)? Not as rigid assignments, but more like inspiration points for those who need a little nudge in stepping into their character.
For younger players, this could help them see themselves in their hero—bringing a layer of self-discovery into the game that ties beautifully into “The Hero Within” theme—Recognizing the hero within themselves.
It wouldn’t add complexity—just a bit of guidance to help new players (especially kids) connect more deeply with their role. What do you think?
And so glad you’ll incorporate a cheat sheet. Honestly, I’m just thinking about how my son would best learn and play this game. He’s never played a TTRPG before and I was explaining it to him which brought up so many questions for him. I base my thinking on his beginner’s mind.
"... I was thinking specifically about younger players or those new to RPGs who might not have the same level of self-awareness as adults or seasoned players.?
Ahhhhhh, now THAT makes sense! So the younger kids know HOW they need to act, or play it out...on purpose! GOTCHA.
Really good idea! =-)
I like that a lot, and maybe that could also be a simplistic set of rules with a little chart?
Oh, the fact that you have Lucas there as a, uhhhhhh, shall we say "test subject" is quite the advantage. Thank you so much for putting your boy in the hot seat! Lol.
This this is Awsome
I love the personality idea
(Not sure if it should be called personality
Maybe Drive?)
But it’s such a cool idea
You’re a genius!
I’m glad it resonated, Joseph, thanks… but you’re right about not calling it personality traits.
Maybe:
•Character Traits
•Core Attributes
•Behavioral Traits
•Essence Qualities
•Innate Characteristics
Or how about
•Heroic Qualities
(since it’s specific to the Hero Within)
I want to think on this, because I'm thinking the name should be as important as what it represents.
Simple. Concise. Potential.
..but I like "core".
Funny thing is, if we were talking about the Verrdra...(the dragons), this would be called the "Heartsong".
What is the heart of who they are??
As far as my input goes
Having a cap on race seems like a hindrance
Ya I know dwarves tend to be short stocky and stubborn
But in games it doesn’t feel good to have things taken away from you
Sticking with the dwarf example lets say I want to be a wizard dwarf who loves cats and jazzercise
But I have a cap on reason or coordination
Then it doesn’t encourage my creativity
It discourages it
It limits
You see what I’m saying?
Yes, but this is where I tell people "I get that you want everyone to be everything, but they aren't. Ih, you want to be a dwarf that loves cats, that's on you. Want to enjoy jazzercize? Go for it...you just suck at it compared to the elves."
Creativity is where this would be me saying if you want this badly, sell me on how? Magic? Potions? Get special dance lessons from the hot elf chick's of the traveling hip wiggles? Okay.
...just don't say dwarves can do everything,or those no point in being one.
Which if that's the case, be a jazzercize elf and just find a ring of dwarf illusion.