That's a lot of questions, and hard to answer, but I do think there should always be consequences for using magic.
It should not be a thing where others are subject to your will, but you are exempt.
All action, be it mental, physical, or spiritual, in this life come with rewards, and consequences, whether we recognize them, at the time, or not. Some happen so gradually that we scarcely can recognize where they originate, (such as negative thought patterns creating negative experiences in life), while others are instantaneous, such as touching a hot stove (you are burned immediately).
I think any attributes, be they magic, or natural, should have consequences stemming from the intent in which they were used.
...I know that probably doesn't help you, but I just think if magic is used for good, it should create good, and reward good, while magic used to hinder, or cause harm should cost the spell caster something which they value.
.. Anyhow, that's my two cents (or two dollars) worth.
I've been thinking much the same...and I don't know if Joseph and Bendragon are going to agree, but your single statement threw my mind into this contemplation again. You said:
"It should not be a thing where others are subject to your will, but you are exempt."
THAT statement, specifically, is one of the KEY aspects of how I want this game to be. To show players that we are heroes, and that we are required to make choices, and those choices should, and MUST be made wisely...beCAUSE there are consequences.
This also goes both ways.
You can have interactions with another, such as conflict, and let's say, someone else is being aggressive and they should be, and you do nothing, but ignore it, what "choice" have you made?
Are you at all part of the end result of that event?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Would things have been different f you stepped in?
Would the aggressor have changed their mind if you had done nothing else but speak up and say...SOMEthing?
Perhaps.
Life isn't easy, and it sure as heck isn't simple.
At the same time, I personally believe that WE...make life far more complicated than it SHOULD be.
Communicate. Be kind. Be thoughtful. Allow space. Respect the choice of others. Reserve the right to choose yourself.
Yes Hyrum...I am in full agreement that magic should cost.
What that is, or in what degrees that happens is now the question.
Looking at your question, I think "some of both" is my answer to each of these. Re: type of magic, Joseph Lallo has a series where his magician is a writer, spells are crafted with pen and ink. The more rare and longer spells are more powerful. It fascinated me how that came together. Greater Lands is the series.
I am looking forward to one day playing this around a table in the fiction hub. Or maybe in the Roadkill Tavern!
I think the player not only chooses a path, but chooses whether or not to advance outside the established order. Say your are an elemental ice trainee (I forgot the term and the app is too limited to scroll up) and you have the option to follow the established path to the next training stage OR you jump the path, become self taught, but with that comes some trade offs. As a self taught ice mage, you have the ability to grow faster and make stronger attacks BUT each use comes with the chance of catastrophic failure that isn't present the steady-as-she-goes trainee path. You could become quite the wild card-- or blow yourself up, just like with any other kind of technical skill. I could self train to wire a house, skip the middle man (unions, trade schools) and make more money out the gate, but I risk killing myself and/or setting a house on fire from not knowing what I don't know.
One issue I'm still stuck on, and anyone who doesn't agree can try and sell me on another perspective...but going self taught has more than one path of "Oh crap".
You don't know what you're doing.
Does that mean you can't? No.
I think it provides MORE options, because you reject the "box"...but now we balance some aspects...
How far did you GET down a path? Do you understand the basics? Do those discipline also affect your new desired path?
1. I absolutely agree with Hyrum about consequences so I won’t delve too deep into that.
2. Intellectual magic vs instinctual magic. I think a mix of the two would work quite well. You could have those who have a knack for the arcane, but also those who have fought tooth and nail learning everything they could in order to practice magic.
This would almost split all magic users into two communities. One who is far more powerful, yet less learned in their abilities. And the other who is less powerful, but knows the tricks of magic, optimizing their abilities.
In order to make it work on paper, it may have to become two different classes, and maybe it just won’t work at all. Who knows? Those are just some ideas.
3. Limiting power. I think the best way to do this may be to just work off of mana limitation. This would allow for a couple really powerful outpourings of magic, but only if they want to be very limited for a while. Alternatively, they can moderate their usage making them useful throughout. It would all depend on the playstyle of the player.
Sorry I’m a little late to the discussion, I wanted to comment earlier but life got busy for a bit.
Side note: I am so excited for this as well as the fiction hub, I’m really looking forward to the finished versions of both!
yes everything has consequences. yes it should but that takes away the point. if magic had immediate consequences to anyone who used it for anything else other than for good. bad people using magic would be a rarity. Magic is a tool. a tool capable of the greatest good or the greatest evil.
yes i get the concept of discouraging the players from making "evil" or "bad" decisions. but who gets to decide what uses of a fireball for example is evil or good? the dungeon master? then why not have the dungeon master integrate natural responses to actually bad tendencies.
the player purposefully burns down an orphanage with fireball just for fun. obviously bad. as a GM. the town arrests you and you are executed. no role. just cause and effect. if you are evil you suffer consequences.
all I'm saying is if you put it into the "rules" like that then you'll get bad GM's deciding everything the players do. That was bad intent you get a negative, that was good intent you get a positive.
nightmare for balancing, suddenly its much harder to play a wizard compared to a non magical class who has no such restrictions. and you'll create a disconnect between players and GM.
intent is not for the GM to decide.
if there is a player acting in a way that goes against the hero mentality consistently that a discussion between GM and player. not a rule in the game.
anyway feel free to take this or leave this it's your game. this is just the way i see it.
anyway mana system seems like a good idea. you have to play around with balancing without them feeling too overpowered to other players but they still feel powerful and feel like they are having a good time
That's a lot of questions, and hard to answer, but I do think there should always be consequences for using magic.
It should not be a thing where others are subject to your will, but you are exempt.
All action, be it mental, physical, or spiritual, in this life come with rewards, and consequences, whether we recognize them, at the time, or not. Some happen so gradually that we scarcely can recognize where they originate, (such as negative thought patterns creating negative experiences in life), while others are instantaneous, such as touching a hot stove (you are burned immediately).
I think any attributes, be they magic, or natural, should have consequences stemming from the intent in which they were used.
...I know that probably doesn't help you, but I just think if magic is used for good, it should create good, and reward good, while magic used to hinder, or cause harm should cost the spell caster something which they value.
.. Anyhow, that's my two cents (or two dollars) worth.
Hyrum,....that was.....amazing.
AND spot ON, I might add!
I've been thinking much the same...and I don't know if Joseph and Bendragon are going to agree, but your single statement threw my mind into this contemplation again. You said:
"It should not be a thing where others are subject to your will, but you are exempt."
THAT statement, specifically, is one of the KEY aspects of how I want this game to be. To show players that we are heroes, and that we are required to make choices, and those choices should, and MUST be made wisely...beCAUSE there are consequences.
This also goes both ways.
You can have interactions with another, such as conflict, and let's say, someone else is being aggressive and they should be, and you do nothing, but ignore it, what "choice" have you made?
Are you at all part of the end result of that event?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Would things have been different f you stepped in?
Would the aggressor have changed their mind if you had done nothing else but speak up and say...SOMEthing?
Perhaps.
Life isn't easy, and it sure as heck isn't simple.
At the same time, I personally believe that WE...make life far more complicated than it SHOULD be.
Communicate. Be kind. Be thoughtful. Allow space. Respect the choice of others. Reserve the right to choose yourself.
Yes Hyrum...I am in full agreement that magic should cost.
What that is, or in what degrees that happens is now the question.
Thoughts?
Looking at your question, I think "some of both" is my answer to each of these. Re: type of magic, Joseph Lallo has a series where his magician is a writer, spells are crafted with pen and ink. The more rare and longer spells are more powerful. It fascinated me how that came together. Greater Lands is the series.
I am looking forward to one day playing this around a table in the fiction hub. Or maybe in the Roadkill Tavern!
That sounds fascinating....'Greater Lands'?
Looking that up!
[also,...check your Discord...send you a DM....]
Let me ask you this, Deleyna....
Should PCs be able to create their own spells?
I think the player not only chooses a path, but chooses whether or not to advance outside the established order. Say your are an elemental ice trainee (I forgot the term and the app is too limited to scroll up) and you have the option to follow the established path to the next training stage OR you jump the path, become self taught, but with that comes some trade offs. As a self taught ice mage, you have the ability to grow faster and make stronger attacks BUT each use comes with the chance of catastrophic failure that isn't present the steady-as-she-goes trainee path. You could become quite the wild card-- or blow yourself up, just like with any other kind of technical skill. I could self train to wire a house, skip the middle man (unions, trade schools) and make more money out the gate, but I risk killing myself and/or setting a house on fire from not knowing what I don't know.
I like that line of thought.
One issue I'm still stuck on, and anyone who doesn't agree can try and sell me on another perspective...but going self taught has more than one path of "Oh crap".
You don't know what you're doing.
Does that mean you can't? No.
I think it provides MORE options, because you reject the "box"...but now we balance some aspects...
How far did you GET down a path? Do you understand the basics? Do those discipline also affect your new desired path?
...THEN we have the risk we are talking about.
Ok, lots of thoughts.
1. I absolutely agree with Hyrum about consequences so I won’t delve too deep into that.
2. Intellectual magic vs instinctual magic. I think a mix of the two would work quite well. You could have those who have a knack for the arcane, but also those who have fought tooth and nail learning everything they could in order to practice magic.
This would almost split all magic users into two communities. One who is far more powerful, yet less learned in their abilities. And the other who is less powerful, but knows the tricks of magic, optimizing their abilities.
In order to make it work on paper, it may have to become two different classes, and maybe it just won’t work at all. Who knows? Those are just some ideas.
3. Limiting power. I think the best way to do this may be to just work off of mana limitation. This would allow for a couple really powerful outpourings of magic, but only if they want to be very limited for a while. Alternatively, they can moderate their usage making them useful throughout. It would all depend on the playstyle of the player.
Sorry I’m a little late to the discussion, I wanted to comment earlier but life got busy for a bit.
Side note: I am so excited for this as well as the fiction hub, I’m really looking forward to the finished versions of both!
Working on the promo art today...
ok to throw in my two cents.
yes everything has consequences. yes it should but that takes away the point. if magic had immediate consequences to anyone who used it for anything else other than for good. bad people using magic would be a rarity. Magic is a tool. a tool capable of the greatest good or the greatest evil.
yes i get the concept of discouraging the players from making "evil" or "bad" decisions. but who gets to decide what uses of a fireball for example is evil or good? the dungeon master? then why not have the dungeon master integrate natural responses to actually bad tendencies.
the player purposefully burns down an orphanage with fireball just for fun. obviously bad. as a GM. the town arrests you and you are executed. no role. just cause and effect. if you are evil you suffer consequences.
all I'm saying is if you put it into the "rules" like that then you'll get bad GM's deciding everything the players do. That was bad intent you get a negative, that was good intent you get a positive.
nightmare for balancing, suddenly its much harder to play a wizard compared to a non magical class who has no such restrictions. and you'll create a disconnect between players and GM.
intent is not for the GM to decide.
if there is a player acting in a way that goes against the hero mentality consistently that a discussion between GM and player. not a rule in the game.
anyway feel free to take this or leave this it's your game. this is just the way i see it.
anyway mana system seems like a good idea. you have to play around with balancing without them feeling too overpowered to other players but they still feel powerful and feel like they are having a good time